tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4107600.post9132455556967323033..comments2023-03-27T07:18:54.285-07:00Comments on Having Two Legs: Job and the Intersession of the Dead - OR - Till We Have FacesTobyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15535764613687631886noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4107600.post-73029601961654555372009-03-12T22:30:00.000-07:002009-03-12T22:30:00.000-07:00Hi Toby,I've actually had a few thoughts about thi...Hi Toby,<BR/><BR/>I've actually had a few thoughts about this from some of your previous posts on similar subjects, but lacked the time to post them.<BR/><BR/>A few thoughts. First, it seems odd in the progression you posit, which I like, of man going from priest to king to prophet, that especially as it pertains to those who have in this life reached the prophet stage should become "sidelined", as you put it, until the eschaton.<BR/><BR/>These saints who have achieved such intimate friendship with God as to be His very counselors become, after their physical death, non-entities in the things God is doing in the world?<BR/><BR/>Why would their communion with the Almighty be reduced because of their lack of a body?<BR/><BR/>This leads to a second point, why should communion with God, who is in two of His three persons bodiless, be diminished at all by lack of a body?<BR/><BR/>Moreover, especially keeping in mind the testimony of the book of Revelations, why would we assume this lack of a flow of information between this world and Heaven? <BR/><BR/>We know at least for sure that the souls of the Martyrs are aware of the need for their blood to be avenged. We know further that the throne room of God is a place where the concerns of this world are being continually represented. Why should we think that our deceased brethren have no knowledge or stake in our plight here on earth? Are they the only ones in the room kept from the knowledge of the struggles of the Church Militant?<BR/><BR/>Finally, and I know this doesn't satisfy your requirement for a biblical mandate for a practice like praying for the intercession of the saints, I second Matt's question about the sustained practice of the Church.<BR/><BR/>Though Matt cites a prayer to the Theotokos from 250, we can go back even further to prayers written on the walls of the catacombs for the intercession of deceased saints. Are we wiser than all the great an holy people of so very many centuries, to say nothing of the overwhelming majority of Christians who have ever breathed?<BR/><BR/>As a side note, I'd love your interaction if you've time to spare (I know, who has that?) at a new website I'm involved with along with a few other converts from the reformed faith to Catholicism:<BR/><BR/>http://calledtocommunion.com<BR/><BR/>God bless,<BR/><BR/>GuidoMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12354061248410724936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4107600.post-21566640138570024492009-03-11T12:00:00.000-07:002009-03-11T12:00:00.000-07:00I'll look over Hebrews this afternoon.I think what...I'll look over Hebrews this afternoon.<BR/><BR/>I think what I'd say though is "perhaps the Bible doesn't logically imply that we can pray to the saints, there is good reason to say 'maybe we should' but not sufficient reason to start. If the whole church did not, we wouldn't have reason to say 'we should'. But at the same time, I don't think we have sufficient reason to say 'we should not', at least not in the face of a tradition that says we should. (There's a prayer to Mary from 250 AD, and for about one thousand years, everyone did.) And the Protestant arguments from the time of the Reformation were perhaps good refutations of the Catholic practices at the time, but if taken as refutations of prayers to the saints in general, they are denials of the Church as the body of Christ, and of the priesthood of all believers."Colin Clouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11836100534647181995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4107600.post-52565752100283728212009-03-11T10:11:00.000-07:002009-03-11T10:11:00.000-07:00One other thought, Matt:The importance of the resu...One other thought, Matt:<BR/><BR/>The importance of the resurrection for mediation and intercession is underlined in Hebrews. Jesus' High Priesthood, his advocacy and intercession is tied to the fact that he was raised up from the dead, and with that resurrection body "ever lives" to make intercession for us in heaven.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15535764613687631886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4107600.post-82191927167808466652009-03-11T09:59:00.000-07:002009-03-11T09:59:00.000-07:00Hi Matt,The point I was pressing is just all the w...Hi Matt,<BR/><BR/>The point I was pressing is just all the weight that Job puts on the resurrection. I would agree that in so far as God's people remain his people even after death they do remain his holy people, priests and prophets and kings to God. Yet, how that works and what that means between death and the resurrection is far from clear. Job and the rest of Scripture as far as I can tell, points us to the resurrection as the sure thing, where our hope can be placed without a doubt. And that hope is in having a body and a face and a mouth with which we may speak to God and see him, face to face. The common RC/EO insistence is that the faithful departed are more qualified, more able to intercede, and that's the assumption that I'm questioning. Surely they have entered rest and are freed from the ongoing attacks of sin, but in another sense they are on the sidelines, no longer in the game. Those of us still in our bodies are less perfect in some ways and yet for all that, Scripture seems to suggest we are more qualified to fight/intercede/etc. <BR/><BR/>I hope that helps some.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15535764613687631886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4107600.post-11753490959673807742009-03-10T21:02:00.000-07:002009-03-10T21:02:00.000-07:00I really liked the stuff about the resurrection of...I really liked the stuff about the resurrection of the body, Job's trust in God, and about the Christian becoming, by the power of the Advocate, an advocate.<BR/><BR/>But I'm a little confused about the argument against prayers to the saints. The traditional Protestant response is that the saints in heaven interceed for us, but it is wrong for us to pray to them. Thus Augsburg says that there is just one Mediator, so we shouldn't seek another.<BR/><BR/>But you seem to have turned this around. The Mediator has made us mediators, the Advocate has made us advocates. But the saints in heaven can't mediate or interceed so well as those on earth.<BR/><BR/>And this confuses me. I agree that the Church in heaven isn't exactly the Church Triumphant, and in an important sense is still the Pilgrim Church. But surely the saints in heaven are more perfect in their priesthood than the saints on earth? Or if they are not more perfect, surely they are priests? Maybe we should emphasize "prayer to the living" more than "prayer to the dead" but I'm having trouble getting to "don't treat the dead as advocates and mediators" from "treat the living as advocates and mediators." Surely <I>a fortiori</I>, tread the dead as advocates and mediators? Or if not that, treat as priests at least a little. Priesthood of <I>all</I> believers.Colin Clouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11836100534647181995noreply@blogger.com